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#230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice)

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#83
#230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 01/03/2007 18:58:27

mindcandy
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Please use this thread for discussion about this card.
#556
#230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 03/03/2007 19:41:29

mallerton
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Has anyone solved this one yet. I'm certain I have the correct answer, but it says it's incorrect.

Obviously I may be wrong, but I have equations that fit up into 3 figures, then have found one with no possible fit. Just wondered if anyone else was having any problems with this one?
#567
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 03/03/2007 20:30:55

Plundermot
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Not really spoilers, but might as well be on the safe side:

Spoiler: (highlight to read)

One thing you might have missed -- I almost did -- is that the digits can be in any order, despite them appearing in numeric order in all of the examples. (So the answer isn't 211, if that's what you were going for.)

#573
#230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 03/03/2007 21:14:28

mallerton
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Thanks for the hint. That's exactly what i was trying
#643
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 04/03/2007 13:02:30

jwo
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Managed to solve this one. It did require me to write a small Java program to work out the answer though.

Some hints for anyone else looking to write a program to solve it:

Spoiler: (highlight to read)

Rather than going for a systematic processing of all possible digit, +/- combinations, I tried randomly allocating them.

An equal weighting of concatenate (33% of times), add (33%) and subtract (33%) is fine for finding the solutions for the smaller numbers, but it takes increasingly longer for larger numbers. I therefore changed the weighting to favour concatenate (80%) over addition (10%) and subtraction (10%). This gives a high probability of finding the solution within a relatively short amount of time (about 5 minutes of computing time on my machine).



There may be a better way of computing the answer than I did, but at least it works.
#1450
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 07/03/2007 22:36:56

jb1172
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I was really disappointed that this one wasn't simply:

Spoiler: (highlight to read)

9876543211



...which would have been fun (on a yellow card at any rate. Admittedly, on a silver it would have been silly. But anyone remember Polar from season one? I just entered as many arctic animals and got the answer to that one!)

jb
#5003
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 28/04/2007 10:18:35

plexme
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ok, I'm trying to write a program to solve this one, and the smallest number for which I can't construct an expression is

Spoiler: (highlight to read)

19960



I know this isn't the right answer though, so is there anyone out there who has played around with this and can give me an expression that evaluates to that number, to help me debug my code?

TIA

#5005
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 28/04/2007 13:14:05

X9Tim
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jwo wrote:

Managed to solve this one. It did require me to write a small Java program to work out the answer though.

Some hints for anyone else looking to write a program to solve it:

Spoiler: (highlight to read)

Rather than going for a systematic processing of all possible digit, +/- combinations, I tried randomly allocating them.

An equal weighting of concatenate (33% of times), add (33%) and subtract (33%) is fine for finding the solutions for the smaller numbers, but it takes increasingly longer for larger numbers. I therefore changed the weighting to favour concatenate (80%) over addition (10%) and subtraction (10%). This gives a high probability of finding the solution within a relatively short amount of time (about 5 minutes of computing time on my machine).



There may be a better way of computing the answer than I did, but at least it works.


Maybe I've missed something, but surely:

Spoiler: (highlight to read)

when you test the correct answer you have to try every possible sequence of digits with every combination of +,-,concat. Because of this, I wrote my program (in bash script) to go throught them all in order logging each result to a file then sort them to find the smallest missing number.



I ran it for 2 days solid and it's still got the first digits in order: 012, so my guess is it will take months of continual processing to finish. Therefore I gave up and am searching for a better way (maybe a compiled rather than interpreted language...)

Any ideas what i'm doing wrong?
#5013
#230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 28/04/2007 14:14:53

staffnerd
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I wrote a VB .NET prog to solve this one using the hints above about limiting the result set. I used every possible combination of digits (10!=3.6M). I assumed the answer would be 5 digits or less so any configuration of calcs that would have given a larger solution, I threw away. Using the assumptions in the prior hint about how many +,- operations versus concatenations (10%, 10%, 80%) and these assumptions shortened the run times. It ran in < 15 min on a current notebook and nailed the answer on first try. Of course if I had gotten the wrong answer, it would have narrowed the characteristics of the possible answer and would have resulted in code changes.
#5027
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 28/04/2007 15:22:14

stamford13
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I really have no idea with this one. Rather impatient, you see. It's good revision for Maths SAT's though...
Could someone give me a formula to use on excel to do it myself please. I've got a basic jist of it, but can't for the life of me work it out.
TOM

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#5109
#230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 30/04/2007 06:36:46

plexme
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hallelujah!!

finally debugged my code and got the right answer, as always it seems, was those pesky regexps.

didn't go down the random guessing route, but down the try every relevant combination route, trying to eliminate duplicate scenarios, and scenarios that could not improve the current highest value on the way.

will post my strategy in more detail later, to help anyone else struggling with this one.
#5376
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 06/05/2007 16:00:35

stamford13
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plexme wrote:

will post my strategy in more detail later, to help anyone else struggling with this one.

You said you would post your strategy. I am sooo stuck you wouldnt believe it, and with SATs on tuesday, I need desperate help. Please
Tom

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#5382
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 06/05/2007 19:21:09

plexme
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Sorry Stamford13 (and others) got overtaken by real life events. So here's how I got to the answer, with no random guessing!

Spoiler: (highlight to read)



Firstly, I worked out, on paper, all the unique combinations of the way the numbers could be concatenated ie

10
9 1
8 2
8 1 1
.
.
.
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Then I eliminated from this list all those combination that looked like they would produce too high an answer, these being all those that started with 6 or higher, other then the [6 4] combination

This left the combinations

[6,4],
[5,5],
[5,4,1],
[5,3,2],
[5,3,1,1],
[5,2,2,1],
[5,2,1,1,1],
[5,1,1,1,1,1],
[4,4,2],
[4,4,1,1],
[4,3,3],
[4,3,2,1],
[4,3,1,1,1],
[4,2,2,2],
[4,2,2,1,1],
[4,2,1,1,1,1],
[4,1,1,1,1,1,1],
[3,3,3,1],
[3,3,2,2],
[3,3,2,1,1],
[3,3,1,1,1,1],
[3,2,2,2,1],
[3,2,2,1,1,1],
[3,2,1,1,1,1,1],
[3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1],
[2,2,2,2,2],
[2,2,2,2,1,1],
[2,2,2,1,1,1,1],
[2,2,1,1,1,1,1,1],
[2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1],
[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]

Then I looped through each of the combinations of the 10 digits (all 10! of them), and applied each of the formats to each of the combinations, according to the following high level logic

for each permutation of numbers
...for each combination
......if max poss value of perm/comb > current max
.........compute & store all variations of +/-
......end
......if new max > old max
.........print out newly found numbers
.........delete combinations that can't produce a higher max than currently found
......end
...end
end

Thats about it really, the rest is in the detail of the implementation



hope that helps, happy to provide more hints if required, will post my code on Tuesday, as it's sat on my computer at work.
#12980
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 06/01/2009 20:05:02

fretty
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How am i supposed to solve this card without using a computer. I have no programming skills at all!!

Can someone please point me in the right direction to solve this without a program?

My S2W2 solves - http://s2w2.perplexcitycardmanager.co.uk/cards/solved/fretty/

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#12985
Re: #230 - Sum Other Way (silver dice) 07/01/2009 04:18:46

smartyman
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fretty wrote:

How am i supposed to solve this card without using a computer. I have no programming skills at all!!

Can someone please point me in the right direction to solve this without a program?

I guess it must be possible, but I also went the computer program route. I didn't spend too much effort tuning the program to go after the most likely combinations so it was more of a brute force attack.

plexme wrote:

as it's sat on my computer at work

But you only wrote the code during non-working hours, right?

My solves: http://s2w2.perplexcitycardmanager.co.uk/cards/solved/smartyman/

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